Note: This transcript is the raw transcript of this podcast. Minimal edits have been made only for clarity purposes.

Princess Mthombeni (0:00):

South Africa, is Africa, and we need to implement energy solutions that are socially, environmentally, and economically acceptable.

Narrator (00:25):

Did you know that there are half a million metric tons of nuclear waste temporarily stored at hundreds of sites worldwide? In the U.S. alone, one in three people live within 50 miles of a storage site. No country has yet successfully disposed of commercial spent nuclear fuel, but it’s not for lack of a solution. So what’s the delay? The answers are complex and controversial. In this series, we explore the nuclear waste issue with people representing various pieces of this complicated puzzle. We hope this podcast will give you a clearer picture of Nuclear Waste: The Whole Story. Opinions expressed by the interviewers and their subjects are not necessarily representative of the company.

Jessica Chow (01:19):

Hello, I’m Jessica Chow, Deep Isolation, Technical Marketing Analyst, and a nuclear engineer. My guest today is Princess Mthombeni, a nuclear communication specialist from South Africa and winner of the 2021 Women in Nuclear Global Global Excellence Award. Her career has focused on addressing the socioeconomic issues of the African continent through promoting the peaceful use of nuclear science and technology. Welcome, Princess. Thank you so much for joining us.

Princess Mthombeni (01:50):

Hi Jessica. Thank you for inviting me. I’m happy to be here and hi to your viewers.

Jessica Chow (01:58):

Great, thanks. So we always like to start by asking, how did your career path lead you to work on and support nuclear energy?

Princess Mthombeni (02:09):

Well my journey in the nuclear industry is a bit interesting and it’s interesting in such that it’s not something that I planned. I landed in the nuclear by mistake and by mistake because I received a call from the recruitment agency to say, you have an interview in this company which you need to go to tomorrow. Then I went to this organization and I found myself in the village. Then as I got into the village and I was told that it’s a nuclear industry and something that really I have never heard of before, but as soon as I arrived, I started working there. I realized that basically there’s a lot that people do not know and still need to be educated on. And one of them is nuclear technology. So I said to myself, you know what, I will show that the responsibility of taking nuclear to the people, because I realize that since I don’t know about it, I mean, chances are 80% of the country doesn’t know anything about nuclear technology. So yeah, I decided that I am not only going to focus on developing my career but also maybe making an impact, you know do something so that I create awareness of nuclear technology in South Africa and in the African continent at large. So that’s how I became a nuclear communication specialist and also a lifelong nuclear technology advocate.

Jessica Chow (03:52):

So South Africa is the only African country with a nuclear power plant near Cape Town. Can you tell us why having this clean source of power is important for South Africa or why it’s the only African country with its own nuclear power plant?

Princess Mthombeni (04:10):

Yes, it is the only African country with a commissioned nuclear power plant, but soon it’ll not just be the only country in Africa because Egypt is about to start the construction of the nuclear power plant. The, I think it’s a 4,000-megawatt nuclear power plant that Egypt is about to build, which is a major development in the African continent that deserves to be celebrated. And why having this technology is important in South Africa, you know just like many developed nations, South Africa was able to industrialize through coal. So they built many coal power plants, which are now aging, you know by 2030, not by 20 post 2030 South Africa will be decommissioning about 20 to 24 gigawatt of coal power plants and coal is the base load electricity. It offers the baseload, electricity, and nuclear in South Africa and coal offers the most total electricity in South Africa, with nuclear just being 5%.

Princess Mthombeni (05:23):

So when these age when these coal fleets are being decommissioned and they need to be replaced by something else and not only any technology, but the, any, any power source, but the power source that is able to offer the base load and, and stabilize the grid. So I think that it’s, it’s important that we start as a country. We start looking into the, you know, the solution to the aging coal fleet of which really they have been offering a lot for the country. And also it’s important because currently nuclear offers the cheapest electricity in the country. It’s per kWh cheaper than coal. So those are things that people need to know that nuclear is when nuclear is also cheap in terms of per kWh, unlike other sources. And especially those sources that are, are not baseload, which is available only or are controlled by the weather.

Princess Mthombeni (06:32):

So it’s important that as South Africa, we also look into the challenges that we are facing as a country.  South Africa faces the load shedding challenge, the power cuts which are mainly due to those aging coal power plants. So if we were to actually solve the load shedding in South Africa would need to build or introduce more power sources into the grid. And specifically, the power source that is able to offer baseload electricity. And in this case, it’s only nuclear because, in South Africa, we do not have hydropower. We have water scarcity problems. So we will not be able to actually build more hydropower plants, which are also valuable to you know mitigating or helping contribute to reaching the net zero carbon emission. So, yeah, I think that nuclear is important because right now it offers the cheapest electricity, per kWh in South Africa. And also that it’ll be able to replace those aging coal fleets.

Jessica Chow (07:45):

Right. Right. So what are the challenges that the nuclear industry faces in South Africa, as well as Africa as a whole, as it relates to politics, economic development, and social issues?

Princess Mthombeni (08:03):

The main challenge is the lack of knowledge that persists around nuclear technology in the industry. Not only in South Africa, but globally, but I think that in South Africa and Africa, it’s worse, you know I’d like to say the quote by former president of Burkina Faso, Thomas Sankara, who said: “the enemies of people are those who keep them in ignorance”. So yeah, I feel that people get away with, you know, implementing the solutions that are not socially acceptable because they know that no one will hold them to account because people really, do not have knowledge of this. Hence I took the responsibility to educate people because I believe that when you educate people and give them enough information so that they are able to debate from a, you know, an informed perspective and hold the leaders accountable and be part of the conversations when it comes to energy solutions.

Princess Mthombeni (09:16):

So, yeah. I think that the challenge is mainly the lack of knowledge, but another challenge that we have, which basically has been perpetuated by those who are against nuclear, the anti-nuclear lobby groups, they have spread the information that nuclear is expensive, building nuclear power plants is expensive and have done a lot in influencing policies in terms of, you know, least costly that they use. So, yeah, it’s that to say, South Africa and Africa, African countries cannot be able to afford to build nuclear power plants because they are expensive which I also find very unfair because that means now people are dictating as to what energy sources that as an African continent, we should be able to implement, regardless of whether those energy solutions that they are bringing on the table will be able to solve our problem.

Princess Mthombeni (10:27):

And the most problem that I usually speak about is the challenge of industrialization. We as the African continent and as South Africa, need to industrialize, I think being comfortable to be called underdeveloped nations, should come to an end. We should come up with solutions that will also put us in the, you know, up there to say, we have managed to develop as a country. So really, I think it’s unfair to dictate in the African continents or African nations as to which energy solutions they should be implementing. And also I find it very strange that those who are benefiting from, you know, from selling these renewables, you know solar panels and wind turbines, they have actually managed to convince African nations that and made Africa the canvas area for their renewables solutions of which also I find it very concerning to say, it’s fine.

Princess Mthombeni (11:39):

Why can’t we implement the energy solutions according to our, you know, social and economic challenges as nations? And that is to come up with an energy mix that actually includes all of that and including nuclear, because I believe that if we want to talk industrialization, if we to talk job creation, we will need to actually, yeah, industrialize as a country, we would need a baseload electricity source. And that we can only get that from nuclear hydropower and you know, gas. But we also need to keep in mind that gas is not available. Gas infrastructure is not really available in African countries. Yes. Countries such as Mozambique, do have gas, but it’s not fully harnessed. And in order to get that gas to reach other African countries, you need to build a lot of infrastructures, which really is currently insufficient. So, yeah, that’s just my take to say, as South Africa, as Africa, we need, we need to implement energy solutions that are socially, environmentally, and economically acceptable.

Jessica Chow (13:05):

Great. So as you just said, that one of the misconceptions about nuclear is that it’s really expensive. So as someone whose career focuses on communicating about such a challenging and difficult topic, what have you learned are the other most common misconceptions people have about nuclear and how do you try to overcome those in the community?

Princess Mthombeni (13:31):

I think one of the famous ones is that nuclear power plants are not safe and they base this on historic events such as Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, and Fukushima incidents. So, yeah, it’s also, again, it’s people trying to push their own, you know, personal agenda. But how we try to overcome such challenges is that we try to communicate, especially on the safety aspect of it. I mean, we know that technology evolves, all the technologies evolve and that includes nuclear is not immune to evolving. So if we are saying that the technology evolves and we are going to still, you know, defer to the historic events that happened way back without even considering what is, you know, the technology innovations that are currently being implemented. 

So and also nuclear is nuclear power plants are, you know, highly regulated by, you know, local regulators over and which are overseen by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). So in terms of safety, nuclear plants, or nuclear power plants are highly regulated chances of, you know, nuclear, you know, radioactive material escaping, or being taken out of the nuclear power plants are very slim based on the security, the high tech security that is there in the nuclear power plants. So those are things that we try to communicate. And also we face an issue of you know, waste nuclear, radioactive waste is dangerous. And in our communication really it’s, I don’t even think that when it comes to waste, we should be making such a huge goal.

Princess Mthombeni (15:33):

And considering that I have never heard that nuclear waste killed anyone anywhere, anywhere else in the world. But then we also, you know, try to communicate that how we, you know, how the nuclear waste is disposed of in different countries, including in South Africa which is done in the Northern Cape. So those are things that we try to take to the public to say, yeah, yes, we have nuclear waste is radioactive, but there are means that are being done in order to make sure that you know, people and the environment are not exposed to that radiation.

Jessica Chow (16:15):

So South Africa is currently temporarily storing its spent nuclear fuel. Can you update us on what the country’s planning to do for permanent disposal or long-term disposal?

Princess Mthombeni (16:30):

So yes. Yeah, in South Africa, we have a low-level waste disposal area, which is called Vaalputs in the Northern Cape one of the provinces in South Africa. But what has happened recently is that the government the cabinet has approved the central, the interim centralized storage facility, which will be built actually away from Koeberg and they will store it for a long time, they will store the spent fuel in the, and I think that that’s one of the things that it should or the innovations that we should be proud of as a country that at least for now, for a long time, we are going to have this solution for the spent fuel. Well, and I always say the nice part about science is that scientists are always hungry to come up with research and solutions and long-term solutions, or even permanent solutions. So with regards to nuclear waste, the permanent solution, I believe that it’ll be found and that will it’ll happen soon.

Jessica Chow (17:51):

So do you think finding a permanent solution for South Africa’s spent fuel would help lead to an expansion of nuclear power usage in South Africa, or even Africa as a continent as a whole?

Princess Mthombeni (18:10):

Well, that would be great to find a permanent solution, but it’s not the only hindrance or the main hindrance when it comes to nuclear development in South Africa and Africa, as I mentioned earlier the challenge is the issue of cost. They have really, I think that the anti-nuclear lobby groups have moved away from, you know, focusing on nuclear waste, but they’re now focusing on the cost of nuclear to better block the development of nuclear. So, yeah, it would be great to find a solution by it’s really not the hindrance when it comes to the development of nuclear in, in South Africa and in the African continent.

Jessica Chow (18:54):

So to help educate the public about nuclear energy in conjunction with the work that you already do for the South African government, you founded a nuclear energy series on YouTube called Africa for Nuclear under the theme, nuclear energy, and nexus of life. So what prompted or inspired you to launch the series? How do you see this form of energy as a nexus of life?

Princess Mthombeni (19:21):

Well having joined the nuclear industry, I was lucky to be part of the international network of nuclear professionals across the world and being part of them. I learned how other professionals are doing it in their own countries. And then I said to myself, I mean, Africa cannot be left behind. And then that’s really when I started the idea of Africa for Nuclear, it remained an idea until I was forced to implement it because I happened to be part of this course, which was a training course for women. It says that women in communication science or, yeah, something like that, it was offered by ANSTO and IAEA, I was part of it. And then we were tasked to go back to our countries and develop and implement this, you know, big awareness campaign so that I implement it in our country.

Princess Mthombeni (20:26):

So Africa4Nuclear idea now had to come to life. Then I implemented or I developed a conceptualized it, and then I together with my colleagues and we tried to actually, yeah, come up with nice scripts and, and all that. But why I’m saying there is a nexus of life it’s because it is exactly that nuclear is the nexus of life. We see that through many applications that are available and that are using, that are used in different sectors, such as the food and agricultural sector, and medicine. I mean, we save lives using nuclear medicine, also in the non-destructive non-testing, oh, non-detective testing, they call it that. And then we also water resources, you know, the application of water desalination. So those are all applications that are available in the nuclear industry. And that shows that really this nuclear technology is in our life.

Princess Mthombeni (21:30):

There’s one application or innovation that has been current, that has in recently, you know found actually it’s, it’s called the Rhisotope Project. They, you know, using nuclear technology or nuclear application, we will be able to save rhinos from being poached. That’s just amazing. And I think anyone should be, you know, should look, should, should look out for the developments of that innovation in South Africa and in Africa as a whole. So yeah, that’s basically why I’m saying nuclear is the nexus of life, because all these applications that you find nuclear applications, they prove to us that really this nuclear is what we live in every day.

Jessica Chow (22:23):

So the average annual temperature in South Africa is predicted to increase by 4.4 degrees Celsius by 2100 if emissions aren’t reduced. So how is global warming affecting the country currently, and are public concerns about the environment leading to more discussions about deploying more clean energy, nuclear, or other sources?

Princess Mthombeni (22:51):

Well, Jessica, you know, climate change is already a measurable reality posing significant economical, environmental, and you know, social risks and challenges, not only in South Africa but in the whole world globally. And South Africa also like other nations has, you know, the task of balancing the acceleration of economic growth and transformation. And they should do so in a manner that is environmentally acceptable so that they are able to contribute to helping the world in reaching net zero carbon emission, carbon emissions by 2050. And water has been retired. You know, the primary medium through which the effects of climate change are being felt is South Africa. And that’s according to the department of water report in 2013, and they are saying the increases in climate variability and impacting both water availability and water quality through changes in rainfall patterns and more intense storms.

Princess Mthombeni (24:12):

So I think I will speak from the energy perspective, the industry, which I’m, you know, clued up about what South Africa has done in terms of addressing the issues of climate change. In 2019, they created what is called the integrated resource plan, which is a, you know, an energy master plan for the country, and that IRP in short, we call it, IRP south African IRP actually calls for a balanced energy mix that includes nuclear, renewables and gas, and others. And so more and more renewables are being introduced to the grid. And as I mentioned earlier the coal fleet is aging, and it’ll be decommissioned post-2030. And the plans are to actually replace those coal power plants with either nuclear, gas, or renewable. So we’ll see.

Jessica Chow (25:30):

Perfect. Is there anything else, you’d like to tell our viewers today about your work that you’ve been doing or any new initiatives you’re starting?

Princess Mthombeni (25:43):

I’d like to invite them to come and follow us on social media at Africa4Nuclear. We are on TikTok on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. And I can assure you that we are planning nice things. We are planning exciting things going forward as after pro-nuclear, we will be introducing television. We’ll be introducing outreach programs in the whole of our African continent will be introducing CSI, corporate social investment programs. So, yeah, lots and lots of exciting stuff is going to happen, and I’m inviting them to come and be part of this journey and be part of the conversations as well, because we do need nuclear professionals to be able to, you know, respond on our behalf.

Jessica Chow (26:22):

Well, thank you so much Princess for joining us today.

Princess Mthombeni (26:26):

Thank you so much, Jessica, for inviting me and I wish you all the best for what you are doing, it’s really an amazing initiative that you guys are involved in.

Narrator (26:39):

We believe that listening is an important element of a successful nuclear waste disposal program. A core company value is to seek and listen to different perspectives. Opinions expressed by the interviewers and their subjects are not necessarily representative of the company. If there’s a topic discussed in the podcast that is unfamiliar to you, or you’d like to more closely review what was said, please see the show notes at deepisolation.com/podcasts.

Note: This transcript is the raw transcript of this podcast. Minimal edits have been made only for clarity purposes.

Suzie Jaworowski (00:10):

We’re at the stage where states are starting to say, Hey, we need this kind of technology. We can’t just retire fossil fuel plants and implement renewables. We need another base load source. 

Narrator (00:26):

Did you know that there are half a million metric tons of nuclear waste temporarily stored at hundreds of sites worldwide? In the U.S. alone, one in three people live within 50 miles of a storage site. No country has yet successfully disposed of commercial spent nuclear fuel, but it’s not for lack of a solution. So what’s the delay? The answers are complex and controversial. In this series, we explore the nuclear waste issue with people representing various pieces of this complicated puzzle. We hope this podcast will give you a clearer picture of Nuclear Waste: The Whole Story. 

We believe that listening is an important element of a successful nuclear waste disposal program. A core company value is to seek and listen to different perspectives. Opinions expressed by the interviewers and their subjects are not necessarily representative of the company. If there’s a topic discussed in the podcast that is unfamiliar to you, or you’d like to more closely review what was said, please see the show notes at deepisolation.com/podcasts.

Kari Hulac (01:48):

Hello, I’m Kari Hulac, Deep Isolation Communications Manager. My guest today is Suzie Jaworowski, Former Chief of Staff in the US Department of Energy’s Office of Nuclear Energy under the Trump Administration. Suzie was the first woman to serve as chair of the International Framework for Nuclear Energy Cooperation, an organization dedicated to nuclear energy issues. Among her many accomplishments, she has served as Advisor to the Director General of the International Atomic Energy Agency and is an Advisor to NuScale Energy. Welcome, Suzie. Thank you so much for joining us.

Suzie Jaworowski (02:23):

Thanks Kari. It’s a pleasure.

Kari Hulac (02:26):

All right. We always like to start by asking, how did your career path lead you to work on nuclear energy issues?

Suzie Jaworowski (02:34):

Well, it certainly wasn’t something that I had planned. I am not a nuclear engineer or a scientist but I have always, throughout my career, ended up working with clients that were energy related. And it really taught me to have such a deep appreciation for what energy does in our life and culture. And we take it for granted all the time and it’s just, I always felt really privileged to work in advocacy and communications and in government affairs on energy issues, because it is so important and if our energy policy isn’t right, it can really affect so many things in our lives. It can affect the reliability of course, it can affect electricity. It can also affect the cost of the goods we buy. If the price of electricity goes up, the price of bread goes up. And so I was very fascinated by that.

Suzie Jaworowski (03:29):

And I had worked in all different kinds. I did some work for utilities and in my clients, I had some fossil fuel clients in the past. And when I got to the US Department of Energy, I asked to work in the Office of Nuclear Energy because I really admired the large scale power, zero carbon emissions and it seemed like such a mystery of how it really worked. And it was a chance for me to come in from an administrative point of view, but quickly became an advocate because it’s such amazing power that I felt is really underutilized. So that’s how I got to be working in the Office of Nuclear Energy.

Kari Hulac (04:10):

So as Chief of Staff in the US Department of Energy’s Office of Nuclear Energy work to help the US become energy independent. So this term describes a country’s dependence on foreign oil. So maybe share what you learned while navigating such a complex responsibility and share why it’s so important.

Suzie Jaworowski (04:30):

Oh, that’s a really good question. And I was so honored to be a part of that team that helped us to be energy independent. And one of the things that I learned was how strategically critical energy is for national security. You know, that, and again, is something that cannot be overstated. I was fortunate to go to Poland and work with the Poles on their plans for developing nuclear energy and it was all about getting out from under Russian gas. And, you know, we don’t think about that here. We have such… we’re blessed in the United States to have a very diverse generation depending on where you live. It may be all different kinds of things, but it gives us a lot of security and it gives us a lot of independence. And so to work with, you know, Romania, Poland, and other European countries that want to get away from relying on one source for their gas really taught me how crucial this energy source is. People’s lives depend on it, and it’s something really for countries to think about and work together to deploy. Not only is it the clean energy benefits that we’re all big fans of and so appreciative, it also gives independence to countries and then they can pursue their own freedom, which really I think is pretty awesome.

Kari Hulac (06:01):

And what role do you feel nuclear can play in that right now? And I mean, I’d imagine that would be a key part of moving forward in our energy future.

Suzie Jaworowski (06:11):

Yes. I mean, nuclear is so crucial for many reasons. Primary, I think most people think about the carbon emissions reduction goals today, but you know, you look at the taxonomy and the European Union right now, and they are including nuclear as a green energy source. That is fantastic. I think that’s a no-brainer quite honestly. I feel that, you know, we have to have realism in our energy policy and realistically Fukushima was among the largest disasters that anybody could have ever imagined. No one ended up dying as a direct result from the radiation there. We know that there were two people who drowned onsite at the plant. But the response to it was big and was, you know, you do what you do at the time with the best intentions and security in mind.

Suzie Jaworowski (07:12):

But I think some countries overcorrected by immediately shutting down all of their net nuclear assets. Japan, I have to commend them, I was at Fukushima myself. They did a very good job of taking what was, as I said, a huge disaster, brought the world in to help not only mitigate the problem, but also to learn from it. And so they have opened a museum that talks about how the accident happened, what they learned from it and how to never do it again. And so I think that that was a terrible situation. We learned a lot from it and some countries did overreact on that. Moving forward, I think we take the lessons learned. We, you know, it really is such a safe energy source compared to other energy sources. It is so much safer. You know, the mortality rate for nuclear is almost next to nothing compared with other sources and yet people are still so frightened and have a perception of being scared of nuclear. And that’s something that I think we in the industry have to do a better job of telling our story.

Kari Hulac (08:34):

I think the next question will also get to that a little bit, kind of. Because I wanted to ask you about the Office of Nuclear Energy, you were the political liaison between the Office and the Secretary of Energy and the White House. And when we get into politics, we often hear solving nuclear waste is a political issue, not a technical one. So maybe you could talk some about what were the perception issues you dealt with? What were the challenges you faced in bridging that technical and political divide over nuclear energy and nuclear waste, which is, you know, the thing that’s so scary to people as you just touched on.

Suzie Jaworowski (09:10):

Exactly. And it, you know, that is such a complex landscape to navigate. But if you cut through all of the different divides, because there’s divide between the two parties, there’s divide within each party about how we deal with spent fuel. But again, I think that we have to just be very realistic about the situation and I think the best analogy to demonstrate our fuel scenario today is that imagery of saying that all the spent fuel that we’ve used in the United States can fit on a football field. And some people say it’s 10 feet deep. Some people say it’s 10 yards deep, but basically it gives you an idea of the mass is not as large as people might think. So that’s one point to make sure that people understand it is being safely stored all around the country, even as we speak. Yucca mountain was an ideal repository for the spent fuel.

Suzie Jaworowski (10:17):

And I think it’s important for us to think in terms of moving forward in the future that that spent fuel can be reused again. There are other countries that do that, you know, there’s 96% fuel left in the fuel rods that are used. And there’s no reason that we can’t reuse that when the time is right, when the budgeting is right. But it is, again, I think education is going to be key to bringing together some unified policy and how to deal with spent fuel. When I was at DOE, we used to every month, go up on the hill and we would have these atomic wing lunch and learns where we’d bring in hot wings and have staffers and lawmakers come. And we would talk about issues like spent fuel and it was not a political environment. It was a question and answer, talk to the experts and have a conversation about the reality of the situation, that was the environment. And I think we need to do more of that to be able to make really informed decisions,

Kari Hulac (11:24):

Right. Because what will it take for the US to see that progress forward when it comes to disposing of spent fuel and moving past Yucca Mountain, which seems to be at a stalemate.

Suzie Jaworowski (11:36):

Correct, I agree. Yep.

Kari Hulac (11:38):

Besides education, what else do you think it would take to see any progress on a repository?

Suzie Jaworowski (11:47):

Well I think that the more that we are dealing with such an educated population of young people, more informed than any other generation we’ve ever had, the technology that our digital natives have grown up with allow them to learn and be educated on a vast array of topics in record speed. And so utilizing those social media outreach channels, things that are informationally based like Reddit, I think that’s a place where people who really care about issues can go to and find in depth information in a quick, digestible, easy way to learn about it. So I’d say leveraging the channels where people are reading and learning can, you know, we can’t forget about the actual newspaper and the old fashioned kinds of channels as well, but education, engagement, not fear, we can’t use propaganda. We have to be realistic about the benefits and the drawbacks because people are smart and they understand, you know, that there’s no purely perfect source of electricity. And so when you know the benefits and the challenges of each type, nuclear comes out really well and finding ways to deal with our spent fuel is a national imperative. And so being realistic about ways that it can be stored, it can be accessed again, and being able to just, you know, be honest about what the situation is, and then try to educate people and have a respectful conversation.

Kari Hulac (13:32):

And you mentioned the kind of digital native generations, and I wanted to ask, I know you worked with the Millennial Nuclear Caucus. How critical is that movement to the success of nuclear energy and how do you think they’re paying enough attention to the issue of the spent fuel, the challenges that that presents?

Suzie Jaworowski (13:54):

Yeah, I love first of all, working with the Millennial Nuclear Caucus. It was just amazing, such smart, engaged young people who really care about our country and the future of our world. It was just a great opportunity. And we went, we were invited to so many wonderful places. You know, General Atomics had us near San Diego, their headquarters out there. It’s an amazing spot, they have a Tokamak. We got to go see that. We had a NASA, former NASA astronaut come and speak to the crowd. And we were in Japan at the Japanese Institute of Technology and at the IAEA in Vienna, Austria, and so many great universities and science labs across the country. So that was just an amazing experience to engage with young people in those environments. And I think that that kind of movement is crucial.

Suzie Jaworowski (14:51):

That’s what creates the groundswell that can make a change in a real tipping point because young people educate themselves that other generations have not done as I talked about. And they’re ready to advocate, and they do not have the legacy fear of nuclear from days where people weren’t very well informed about the technology and the reality of the technology. So you know, I think today, when things, first of all, we have a totally different fleet of nuclear reactors that are ready to go. So young people do educate themselves on a lot of that technology. The advanced reactors will be a game changer and being able to support those is something that the young generation I’m finding, they are really ready to do. When I talk about SMRs, generally people are, they realize, they talk, oh, that’s that modular nuclear, right? You know, and they have some for familiarity and a much more positive impression because people have been educated on it.

Kari Hulac (16:07):

You already mentioned some of your exciting kind of international travel experiences. Tell us a little bit more about that, what you did with the International Atomic Energy Agency and as chair of the International Framework for Nuclear Energy Cooperation. What lessons did you learn about advancing nuclear around the world? You also touched on the taxonomy, I’d love to hear more about that. It’s become a little bit contentious lately. And for example, you know getting at the regulation changes, mandating a nuclear waste solution. So kinda talk about your experiences there and what you see in terms of what they’re doing today.

Suzie Jaworowski (16:47):

Yes, well I spent some time working in Vienna at the International Atomic Energy Agency. My scope of work there was more in partnering and developing partnerships on behalf of the agency. But I have to say it was a great experience because the people that are there from all over the world, they are there to make a difference and it shows. And so that was a great experience. But it was really where the outreach in IFNEC, the International Framework for Nuclear Energy Cooperation, came together and showed that, one thing I have to say and I hope that my international colleagues will take this in the spirit that it’s intended, they were all looking to the United States to lead and the United States had not been leading. This is not a party commentary, one side or the other. For about 40 years, the United States had not been leading.

Suzie Jaworowski (17:45):

And so it was a breath of fresh air when we stood up and said yes, we want to host the IFNEC Conference in 2019 in Washington, DC. It will be partially hosted at the White House and the Secretary of Energy will be there. And showing that signal to the rest of the world, I think gave a lot of enthusiasm and hope to other countries that okay, we’re getting serious, the United States is back in the nuclear energy game globally. And that was great to see that. And so we had some wonderful opportunities. We were down in Argentina in a place called Bariloche that’s in the Patagonia region. They are deploying some SMRs. They have plans to do that now. We were there with the Women in Nuclear global conference, spent several times over at the OECD in Paris and all the countries coming together and talking about the benefits of nuclear and all of those conversations and trips, and the opportunity to meet with people and get to know  them as individuals, even though there are representatives of all these different countries, you know, our executive committee had people from Kenya and Argentina and Poland and Romania and China.

Suzie Jaworowski (19:11):

And so they’re all just people and it was a fabulous opportunity to learn from them. But what I’m finding really exciting is now looking at what’s happening in the country, in our country in terms of deploying SMRs because the reality is that we’re at the stage where states are starting to say, Hey, we need this kind of technology. We can’t just retire fossil fuel plants and implement renewables. We need another base load source. And they’re really starting to see that, I know, West Virginia, Indiana, Wyoming, several states are changing their existing legislation to incorporate SMRs specifically, if not just advanced nuclear. And we’re starting to see that tipping point. So it’s gone from conversation to deployment and it’s really happening. And so it’s an exciting time to be involved in nuclear. Industries like electric vehicles, like high speed computing, like digital currency development, require more energy than our current system can provide. If the United States wants to house these advanced future industries, we need to deploy nuclear to make sure we have a clean source to do that.

Kari Hulac (20:32):

How important is it and what conversations have you heard in the SMR community about having solutions for the waste in place? Is that a conversation that’s happening yet? What, you know, how important is that do you think to the public, to feeling more comfortable with this with the reactors being deployed?

Suzie Jaworowski (20:53):

That always comes up, you know, that’s one of the obstacles that always comes up and we have to address it face on. We just had a hearing here in Indiana. The Indiana Senate Utility Committee put forth a bill, Senate bill 271, it’s called the SMR bill. I’m glad they named it so straight forward and appropriately. And that was one of the big questions that came up was what about the spent fuel? And when there were several people here from the Nuclear Energy Institute, the US DOE, the NCSL was here. And when they told the actual story about what the reality is with spent fuel, that it’s currently being safely stored, it can be safely stored, it can be transported safely, it is not a nuclear waste dumping ground that’s gonna happen, but there are several ways that it can be stored until we need it again. And when we got finished with all these presenters testifying at the hearing, there were some changed hearts and minds in the room and people that came in initially negative on the thought of nuclear, went out and said, I don’t see why we can’t, why we wouldn’t at least give this an opportunity.

Kari Hulac (22:16):

Well, you’ve kind of hit on how challenging the communication around it can be. And if you educate, you can maybe, like you said, change some hearts and minds. Any other ways that you build the trust needed to keep the conversation advancing? 

Suzie Jaworowski (22:33):

Well I think keeping it at the forefront like we do in social media. The challenges, I think that as a community, we talk to ourselves a lot and it’s okay. At least we’re promoting ourselves. But try to get outside of our own realm of conversations. So it’s not so much an echo chamber, but more dialogue. I think that’s one thing. I think inviting young people, especially to places like the National Science Labs and hosting open houses at, you know, Deep Isolation, hosting open houses, putting their technology as simply as possible. I know at DOE we had a really brilliant young person who was responsible for all our digital communications and he had a great way of just taking these complex thoughts and putting it into very easy videos or infographics and using all those communications tools that we have at our fingers. Smart communication goes a long way. So I’d say continue having conversations. Don’t be afraid to tell our story and be open and honest about the benefits and drawbacks. And I think we’ll win more hearts and minds that way.

Kari Hulac (23:48):

What exactly is exciting you about this next generation of reactors? I know you’ve done some work with NuScale. What do you know, so what excites you about them? And then is there anything that should be done differently to ensure that they don’t face the same challenges as some legacy reactors are facing in certain parts of the world getting shut down? So you have these, you know, reactors getting shut down and then you have some hope with the next generation coming online.

Suzie Jaworowski (24:16):

Well, that’s a really good question, Kari. And I’d say there’s two things. One is the technology itself. I mean, I know that this term is not technically accurate, but I like to call them meltdown proof because they do cool in and on them themselves, they cool for an indefinite amount of time, they do not need any kind of electrical backup system, no AC or DC power, and they don’t need any human interaction. So to me, even though it may overheat, it doesn’t have a meltdown explosion kind of situation. And so I like to call it meltdown proof because in everyday vernacular, I think that that paints an accurate picture of what happens. I also think it’s really super cool that these small modular reactors can do desalination. So for island nations, that’s such a great, great opportunity that it can be paired with a microgrid and get the electric system right back up again, and running in a Puerto Rico or hurricane kind of environment.

Suzie Jaworowski (25:18):

And then perhaps one of the most interesting things is the hydrogen production that, you know, it’s a brand new product line if you will. To think about it, you can deploy electricity and also have a channel for developing another cost center, another income center rather, through the hydrogen production. So that technology I think is really, really exciting and then I have to say back on the industrial pairing, the concept of deploying SMRs, it’s expensive and it takes a long time. It might take about seven years to, from the time you say, okay, I’m ready to do it to the time that you deploy. So I think being creative about partnering existing utilities, pairing with an industry, let’s say pairing with data centers. If you have data centers that are gonna make money, they pair with existing energy sources, but have in the long term, a plan to do a cost share with deploying SMRs. That I find really interesting. And I think that ESG investors are also finding that kind of scenario very interesting. So to me, it’s just exciting that there’s a light at the end of the tunnel to deployment. This is actually coming to fruition, and we’ll do so in our lifetime.

Kari Hulac (26:48):

Finally, is there anything we didn’t hit on that you’d like to leave our listeners thinking about today?

Suzie Jaworowski (26:55):

Wow. That’s a good question. I think you asked a lot of good questions. I think just, you know, kind of back to the education issue, we have a product, if you will, that has an image problem and has incited fear in people in the past. And I think just the more we can be very honest about what the situation is and educational, I think it’ll go a long way and I’m just really excited because, most people under or 40 that when I tell them I work in nuclear, they’re excited and they wanna know more about it. So I’m excited that the young generation is so well informed and so positive about nuclear energy and just can’t wait to see what happens in the next 10 years.

Kari Hulac (27:53):

Okay. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. 

Suzie Jaworowski (27:56):

Thank you so much.